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The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen “Breadman” Edwards tackling topics such as winning titles in both boxing and mixed martial arts, Juan Francisco Estrada vs. Roman Gonzalez trilogy, Manny Pacquiao, career of Claressa Shields, and more.
Hey Breadman,
Thanks for all the Saturday reading, it has become one of my weekend reads over the last couple of years as the wife reads the paper. You are a must read for any boxing fan. I wanted to write in to address one of your questions last week regarding whether it was possible to become champion in boxing and MMA.
I think its important to note that has already happened within women’s boxing and MMA – Holly Holm immediately jumps to mind. I try to think back to a tennis interview with Andy Murray when he called out a reporter on who stated Sam Querrey was the first US player to reach the Wimbledon semifinals for several years, ignoring Venus and Serena Williams achievements. It’s something we all struggle with. I think we do a disservice to women who have shown heart, commitment and dedication to reach the top of their game in all sports. With international women’s day this week, what do you feel can be done to make women’s boxing more mainstream and increase its appeal? MMA, pro wrestling and tennis have made strides in this and boxing seems to be starting to move in that direction with Claressa Shields (who herself has eyes on MMA), Katie Taylor, Jessica McCaskill and others. In terms of grass routes, how could we appeal to more women to take up the sport? All the best Jamie McC
Bread’s Response: I stand corrected and I apologize. When I was asked the question I assumed the sender was speaking of Men’s boxing. But I shouldn’t have assumed. As far as what can be done to make women’s boxing more mainstream I think that the Promoters have to promote better. It really comes down to promotion. That’s their job title. The women are the fighters and the promoters are the promoters. I can remember Don King put Christi Martin on some appealing undercards to give her a platform. Putting a big woman’s fight on a huge PPV undercard would definitely give the women a platform. Doing this consistently is the key.
This Saturday I’m flying out to Texas to see Gonzalez- Estrada live. My best friend just moved out there so I’m surprising him and taking him to the fight. Every day leading up, I’m sending (via group chat) one of the fights involving the trio of Chocolatito, Estrada, and Rungvisai. The odds are close, chocolatito is the ‘dog at +150. What’s your prediction and breakdown? What do you think happens in a 3rd meeting with Rungvisai with the winner AND loser of this Saturday’s main event ? my heart tells me chocolatito but gallo is as live as it gets. -@mikesright
Bread’s Response: Good for you my man. I have been singing Chocolatito’s praises for about 9 years now. He’s as smooth as a pressure technician as I have ever seen. He has slipped about 5% physically but his boxing mind is on master level. His resurgence after the SSR losses only validates my stance. If he’s not an ATG he’s definitely an ATG below bantamweight. El Gallo is not far behind. He doesn’t have Choc’s glossy numbers but he’s just as skilled in terms of ability. I really like him too but Choc is my guy.
In this fight I believe that El Gallo is a little bit naturally bigger. I see a bigger bone density in him. I also see a more filled muscle connotation. He’s younger and he has less fights. He also has not been kod. So I understand why he’s the favorite. But I think he may have some tread on his tires also. I saw a hard struggle vs Cuadras that most didn’t notice. I saw a fighter burning some candles. Estrada deserves to be the favorite but this is no gimme fight for him. I really don’t know who’s going to win. I wouldn’t be surprised if this ended in a DRAW or controversial decision. It’s very hard for me to pick against Choc. I really think highly of him. I think we will see a FOY candidate. And if Choc can get off to a good start where he doesn’t get that stressed out look on his face, I think he can hang on. The biggest problem for him is Estrada goes to his body. In their 1st fight, Estrada landed his left hook to the body over and over. For a fighter like Choc that’s tough because that seeps gas out of his engine. Choc has to fight a way to neutralize that. Estrada has to figure out a way to stop Choc’s judge friendly straight right hand. It’s a shot that pops out to the judges. When you deal with 2 volume punchers the puncher who finishes the exchanges usually wins the rounds. Look for who can FINISH the exchanges in this fight. If you twist my arm, I will take Choc by SD. By I won’t bet a dime on this. Estrada should win but Choc may have one more special night for us.
What’s up bread, reading your post from last week and interested in what your saying about different styles amongst cultures and how it effects matchmaking. I agree that prejudice plays apart, but with that being said I was wondering do you think that A-side fighters notice that and pick the fighters accordingly. For instance I’ve been high on Canelo since he was a kid fighting on ESPN before he signed with Golden boy, but in my opinion since the Floyd fight he hasn’t fought any American Black fighters or Mexican fighters with that DOG in em that can cause him problems say for instance a Charlo-brothers, Andrade, a rematch with Lara, or a young up coming Benavidez.
I know it’s touchy when bringing up race in sports, but throughout watching boxing in my lifetime, it seems a good/great American or Mexican fighters always seems to be the fighters from across the pond as they say unless it was one the greats catching the greats from this side on the aging side of the career. It other words as a fan I think we just want 50/50 fights and they’re not being delivered often enough when the winner can be determined before the fight. Thanks always for your expertise opinion and I hope it doesn’t come wrong and offend anyone reading you mailbag, I’ve seen worse here and not for. Bladeface- Az by of Flintown
Bread’s Response: This is a touchy subject. But it’s even more touchy because it’s true to a degree. Fighters who can pick and choose who they fight, and Promoters who don’t want certain fighters to lose always pick fights that they have a better than 65% chance of winning. Unless of course it’s a mandatory which still can be ducked by the way. If a fight doesn’t happen you can look at the landscape and tell who’s side really didn’t want it to happen. I won’t single anyone out for doing this. But it’s no secret if you’re informed or objective.
I also want to give Canelo props for the Lara fight. I keep going back to that fight over and over in my mind. Canelo had just been outboxed by Floyd in 2013. In the summer of 2014 he voluntarily fights Lara who was in his prime at the time and supremely skilled. That was not a matchmaking pick. That was a REAL fight and people should know the difference. The little things count and that fight came after Floyd, not before….
All fights are real. And even when fighters cherry pick they still have to deliver. But that was no cherry pick. If Canelo fights Saunders which he’s scheduled to do and Caleb Plant which seems to be the plan. It doesn’t matter to me that they aren’t black. They are both athletic and twitchy and present tough styles to overcome. You have to be fair with this.
So while I won’t criticize fighters who don’t take those chances. I will give props to fighters who do. Currently and historically I will give you example of fights where a fighter wanted to be great and prove something. Historically let’s start with Ray Leonard. It’s a reason why I revere the man. They say he picked his opponents but that’s hog wash. At a certain point everyone picks their opponents. But Leonard challenged Benitez for a title when Benitez was 36-0 and among the 10 best fighters in the world. How in the hell could that be a cherry pick? In his 2nd defense he fights the world’s best fighter in Roberto Duran who had 8 fights at welterweight by the time and really grew into the weight. People like to lose context and act like Duran jumped from 135 to 147 in one fight. That’s not true at all. That was Leonard’s 2nd defense. To put that in context he took on his 2 biggest threats within 7 months of each other. Duran was 71-1.
To add more context Aaron Pryor and Tommy Hearns were not even champions yet. They didn’t win their titles until 2 months later. Leonard loses to Duran and somehow gets criticized because he asked for an immediate rematch of the man who had just given him his 1st career defeat. You have to read this carefully to see how ridiculous this sounds. And because Duran partied after his best career win, it’s somehow Leonard’s fault who avenged the defeat 5 months later. If Leonard would not have asked for a rematch he would have been deemed a coward for not wanting revenge. So he asks for one and he’s criticized because Duran allegedly partied too much. Unbelievable!
So Leonard makes a title defense and then moves up to fight Ayub Kalule who was the best fighter at 154 at the time and an undefeated champion. I guess he was a cherry pick by Leonard’s standards but really…Then with no procrastination he takes on Tommy Hearns who was 32-0 with 30 kos and also recognized as the world’s best fighter. He did this all from Nov of 79 to Sept of 81. That’s not matchmaking. That’s being a real fighter. And that run alone made him an ATG and put him in the HOF and he was only 25.
Now another fighter who I will give props to is Roy Jones. People call Jones a ducker, etc etc. But Jones fought most of his big fights vs black athletic fighters or fighters with heavy pedigree. No one will say it out loud but I will. Jones fights a 28 year old Bernard Hopkins for his 1st title. He fights a 26 year old James Toney for his 2nd title the following year. He fights Mike McCallum for his 3rd title. McCallum was older but Jones didn’t make him the champion. Jones then fights US Olympian Montell Griffin another black urban fighter. He fights another US Olympian in Virgil Hill. If you throw in Eric Harding, Reggie Johnson and Antonio Tarver you will see that Roy Jones didn’t pick on easy prey. I agree that he should have fought at least one of the great UK Super Middleweights. I also think he should’ve fought Michael Nunn. But Roy Jones fought some athletic fighters who were what we call twitchy, athletic and with heavy pedigree. But he never gets props for it. It gets overlooked. I never allow my thoughts to be influenced by myths without research. Roy Jones fought some very tough fights. Historically I can go on and on about that. I picked Leonard and Jones because for some reason they get criticized for being cherry pickers more than they should.
Over the last few years I will give you current fighters who took REAL fights. Loma and Teo are as real as you can get. What Teo did was set this era on fire. I hope he keeps it up and doesn’t rest his laurels on that one moment. Loma has consistently done it. He took on Gary Russell, Nicholas Walters and Rigo. Before anyone says he picked on Rigo, Rigo was bothering him and calling him out so he gave him the work he asked for. That was no cherry pick. The Charlo Bros also took 2 real fights that get overlooked. Julian Williams and Erickson Lubin were as hot as fish grease and undefeated when they fought them. Both of those fights were viewed as 50/50. You have to give props for delivering in those types of fights. Lubin and Williams are talented, fast, athletic kids that no one was lining up to fight at the time.
Josh Taylor and Jose Ramirez. This is real work right now. Both of these kids are running towards the fire and I’m giving them both credit. This is not a tournament. They don’t have to fight each other. They want to fight each other. I have many more but I don’t have the room. But I wanted to pick fights were the money wasn’t necessarily the biggest. But the risk was. I wanted to pick fights were the fighter could have sort of swerved the work. And I wanted to pick fights where the A side had other options. The issue is simple in boxing. People follow the successful trends. If they see a fighter who makes a boat load of money taking matchmaker’s pick fights then they will do it also. It really comes down to money and priorities but priorities change after losses and with age. At a certain point financial security becomes a priority. I don’t blame anyone for that. You can’t just allow the wool to be pulled over your eyes either. Early on a fighter wants to win a belt. As he ages or loses very few keep their desire to really be great.
I have bring Ali up. Ali is a savage and we may never see another human like him. He took fights he had no business taking. Seriously he was from another world. Who in the hell as a shot 38 year man, takes on a prime Larry Holmes in 1980. No one in this era would take that fight. Humans are not made like that anymore. But Ali did it. So you can’t hold fighters today to that standard. Because no one today would take that fight and it’s unfair to fighters today because this is not their current TREND. We have to understand and accept the era. And until a handful of the best fighters consistently take the fights you speak of, it is what it is. It’s no use of complaining or criticizing. Let’s just hope we still get good fights and every once in blue a great fight will be made by chance. Hopefully Choc vs Gallo delivers.
Hi Breadman,
I pray you and your family are doing well. I’ve read where you compare Lebron to Floyd but I find Lebron to be more like Pac Man. Lebron and Manny both came from extreme poverty and made it to the top. Floyd’s father had his drug money and his Uncle Roger was a world champion. So his financial situation wasn’t as bad until his father went to jail. Floyd can’t compete at the highest level anymore, so he is fighting against Youtubers. Lebron and Pac Man can still compete and beat the best. Pac Man is still a top ten pound for pound fighter and Lebron is the best player in the world still. Floyd was bland and boring and very unentertaining to watch. Lebron is exciting and still can do the spectacular things like dunk, rundown blocks and hit 3 points shots from Steph Curry distance.
Pac Man is still entertaining to watch and is much better then Floyd offensively. That is why Pac Man vs Keith Thurman was way more entertaining the Floyd vs Berto and McGregor. Floyd is not really given serious consideration by intelligent fight fans as the greatest ever but Lebron is definitely in that conversation and Pac Man at his best wins in a more dominant ,impressive fashion that is more exciting and entertaining than Floyd. Which is why Floyd didn’t want that fight when Manny was at his peak. Lebron and Manny are held to a higher standard than Floyd. If they don’t win or perform in a dominant manner, they get crucified by the media. Floyd can hold, grab and jab and never knock anyone out and is praised for it.
Lebron and Manny have hearts of a champion and take on the best at their best. Floyd waits to Manny gets knocked out by someone else and then decides he wants to make the fight. Lebron has beaten teams with Duncan, Khawi, Parker and Ginobli and Durant, Harden and Westbrook and Pierce, Garnett, Allen and Rondo. Floyd ducks Paul Williams, Margarito, Tszyu, Forrest and fights McGregor who is having his first pro fight against a guy who is 49-0 and instead of it being treated like an exhibition Floyd gets credit for a win. Finally, Lebron and Manny both show humanitarian instincts and are both people who are involved with social justice. Floyd seems more concerned with being self-indulgent and justifying and defending a so-called leader who talked about grabbing woman by their privates. A guy Lebron criticize on a regular. So, I see Lebron and Manny being more alike than Lebron and Floyd.
God bless and take care,
Blood and Guts from Philly
Bread’s Response: Been a while since you wrote in. I won’t argue with your opinion. It’s subjective and it has value. Pacman, Floyd and Lebron all are among the greatest athletes ever considering past peak years. Their longevity is incredible and yes Pacman’s WIN over Keith Thurman is historically great. No other fighter in history has came up from so many weight classes to pull off that type of win vs an undefeated excellent fighter in his prime like Keith Thurman. I can’t think of one instance. Hopkins vs Pavlik is close but Pavlik was the one moving up. So I get your point. Let me make mine.
I thought of the Floyd and Lebron comparison because I was asked about Floyd not Manny. Sometimes you guys get frustrated with me but I can only ANSWER what I’m asked. If I don’t insert your favorite fighters it’s not out of slight, it’s out of relevance. I love Manny too. But here is the thing. Floyd and Lebron are both black athletes from the Midwest. Floyd Michigan. Lebron Ohio. Both have a unique distinction because it’s hard to pinpoint their actual primes. If you look at Floyd from the start of his career to his last fight real fight vs Andre Berto. After some career maturity through the preliminary stages, it’s really hard to determine his prime. If you look close from say his title winning effort vs Genaro Herndandez in 1998 up until he fought Manny in 2015. There is no real drop off in skills and execution. His style has evolved and he’s more efficient. He doesn’t throw as many punches but it doesn’t hurt his chances of winning.
If you look at Lebron from his 2nd season in 2004-05 up until the present. There is no real drop off in his game. He doesn’t dunk as often but he still dunks with authority. He shoots more jump shots and his game is more efficient but the effectiveness is still the same across the board. Sounds familiar right. I can’t think of any other athletes were the drop off has been almost undetectable. I love Manny but you said Floyd waited to fight him. If you believe that then you know that Manny is not the same as he was in 10 years ago. I see a detectable drop off in Manny. He’s just so special he can pull a special night like he did vs Thurman. But Manny is not the same guy who ravaged Margarito. Manny is more up and down than Floyd and Lebron are. Manny is just about equally as good. His peak is just as high. But he does have more ups and downs as they do. His style is different. So that’s why I think the Lebron and Floyd comparisons are more accurate.
Hi..Hard debate for P4P # 1 Canelo (Curriculum) or Crawford (Eyeball Test)?I know his eye told him that RJJ was the best in the world in the late 90s, even though the curriculum and the P4P rankings had De La Hoya.
I remember when I saw Terry Norris’s jaw drop, I thought he was a phenomenon and he was the best in the world, and that he had already lost to Jackson. To YGamboa, at some point I thought he was the best fighter in the world. It was only my eyes that told me. I think I read that many considered DCurry the best in the world in 1985. I don’t know well, but I think they were based only on what they could see.
I wanted to ask you this, despite what the P4P rankings say and only considering his good eye … the eyeball test … which boxers in the past have been the best in the world?
Of those that you do not get in the registry by marking the 1 but that for your “Eyeball Test” maybe they deserved the 1.Another question, you have Canelo, Crawford and Inoue locked in No. 1. In which squares (1a, 1b, 1c) do you have each one?
Bread’s Response: Yeah it as hard because Canelo just fought the perfect fight vs Callum Smith. I was so impressed with that performance. He was unreal in that fight. So his eyeball grades are going up. Plus Canelo is younger than Crawford. I honestly don’t have them labeled a,b,c. But if I’m being fair I usually say Inoue’s name 3rd so going by my subconscious he’s the C in the group. But it’s really tough for a Japanese fighter who campaigns at bantamweight to be the #1 fighter in the world as far was universal recognition. The boxing media is based in the US. And the field is more known and deeper over 147lbs. It’s just how it is and it’s not fair by any means but it’s a reality.
I openly admit there are some stand out smaller weight fighters that I look at because I know it’s so hard for them. Inoue is as good as I have seen under 118lbs. He’s special and he would be special if he was 147lbs. I always ask myself is this guy a champion because he’s small and he doesn’t have the hard field to go against. Or is he just a great fighter. Inoue is just a great fighter.
Ok, I thought Terry Norris was among the best fighters in the world. But I never thought he was better than Pernell Whitaker in 1990. I also thought Roy Jones and James Toney were over him during that early 90s time span. By eye ball test I thought Chavez started slipping and it used to bother me that Norris was calling Chavez out because I felt Chavez was too small and old to fight him. Especially when Julian Jackson was also with Don King the same promoter at 160 and Norris never moved up to get revenge. As you can see I’m very detailed in my analysis. I know you said eye ball test but I always consider CONTEXT as well.
I never thought Yuri Gamboa was the best fighter in the world. I strongly disagree with you on that. I did think he was excellent and maybe top 10. I thought he would beat Juan Ma Lopez but I never thought he was #1. I’m really interested in exactly when you thought that. Gamboa’s peak was most likely around 2009-11. I can’t tell you what your eyes saw. But we will be in hard disagreement if you thought he was better than Manny Pacquioa, Floyd Mayweather or Andre Ward during those times. I know he was fast. I know he was dynamic. But it’s more to the eyeball test than surface level talent.
Donald Curry did have a strong case after he defeated Milton McCrory. Lots of people believed it. Hagler was still the man based on accomplishments and he had just kod Tommy Hearns but Curry was making a strong eye ball claim. But Curry didn’t get the fight to put him over the edge. Curry is a good pick on your part.
Other fighters who I thought were the best in world…. Well Roman Gonzales. When Andre Ward was inactive I think after he beat Edwin Rodriguez. Manny had just slipped and lost. And Floyd was inactive and sort of retired. I said to myself Roman Gonzales is the best fighter in the world. He actually got recognized as being the best a little bit later. The best fighter in the world usually gets recognized as such. But the problem is it’s usually a little later than they already are. It’s always happens a year or 2 late.
Going back I thought Ricardo Lopez was as good as anyone in boxing in the late 90s. But I couldn’t prove it because he was so small. But in terms of execution of skill set I thought he was on par with Roy Jones, Felix Trinidad, Shane Mosley and Bernard Hopkins who were all considered the best P4P fighter during Lopez’s reign. Being among the best and being the actual best are different. There isn’t one guy I was absolutely sure about that wasn’t anointed. I wasn’t sure that Lopez was better Jones. I just thought he was as good.
Mark Too Sharp Johnson in the late 90s at flyweight was also a fighter I looked at and said wow I wish he was bigger. I thought he was equal to Lopez and would have beaten Lopez in a fight because he was bigger. Roy Jones was the best fighter in the world at the time but Johnson “looked” to be on the level. I also thought Johnson may have beaten Johnny Tapia who had more media push but he never got the opportunities that Tapia. Opportunities to partake in big fights mean so much. People don’t get that.
I saw 3 fighters early that scared me on how good I thought they would be. I saw Marco Antonio Barrera fight in 1994. 2 years before he fought on Boxing After Dark and I was like wow, he looks special. I saw Shane Mosley fight in around 1995. 2 years before he won the lightweight title and I was like wow, he’s going to be impossible to beat at that weight. He’s too fast and has top much physicality. I saw Francisco Bojado and I thought the same thing and I was NEVER more wrong. See how that goes….
The thing about the Eye Ball Test is you don’t want to speak in absolute terms off of a small body of evidence. Because you can either look crazy or like a genius. So I’m personally careful until the consistency is there. Crawford has been good long enough. We know he’s the goods.
Now currently there is a fighter I think can be #1 P4P within 3 years given the opportunity. I also think this fighter can win the hardest trifecta in boxing. Titles at 147-154-160. Only special fighters have all 3 or even 2. Mickey Walker and Sugar Ray Robinson have 147 and 160. Two fighters who were recognized as ATG immediately at the time of their retirements and often before. There was 154lb division in their era….
Only Emille Griffith, Tommy Hearns, Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran, Felix Trinidad, Oscar De La Hoya and Miguel Cotto have won 147, 154 and 160. It’s an automatic induction to Specialness. Cotto is the only fighter on the list who is borderline ATG. But he’s a lock HOF. I believe there is a young fighter right now who’s not a champion that can not only win belts in those divisions but I believe he can be the RING or Lineal Champion in the divisions not just some belt holder which can be misleading. I will let you guys guess who it is. I don’t want to anoint anyone early but you asked me a question. This kid is a gun slinger and gun slingers get clipped from time to time. I’m not saying he’s unbeatable or will retire 50-0. He’s a killer and often times that can comes back to bite you. But EYE BALL TEST. He’s as good as I’ve seen in person as far as talent. He’s the best fighter I’ve EVER seen in the GYM. And that includes every one. He’s so good world class fighters have to train just to spar him. Sparring him in non peak form will get you embarrassed or severely hurt. We shall see how good my eyes are. His issue will be getting his opportunity while in his peak years because if he doesn’t he will just be a folklore. He’s fighting next month. To give one more clue I think his style is a mix of Mark “Too Sharp” Johnson and Roy Jones.
Hey Bread,
What is it about Arguello’s punching technique that it looks so smooth? To me it looks like he isn’t putting that much effort into them but when he lands it looks devastating. Could you explain that?
Bread’s Response: I have children who are sprinters. And what I’ve learned is that power and explosiveness derives from smoothness and not tensing up too early. Not trying too hard. Sprinters are actually told to have jiggly jaws when they sprint to not tense up. You can try to punch too hard. I used to think Jeff Lacy tried to punch hard. He made too much out of punching hard and once he got to the top level he didn’t get the results or damage he was looking for. Arguello knew how to punch. He punched loose and he snapped his punches at the last second and closed his fist tight at the last second creating that thud at the end.
Arguello is one of the 10 “best” punchers to ever live. Roman Gonzales ironically or not comes from same area and was mentored by Arguello. Choc is another fighter that doesn’t try to punch hard. Yet he scores plenty of kos because he touches correctly and once he gets the touch then he snaps harder and harder. But their goal is to touch the area clean at first. That’s why their kos come after a few rounds. They sort of check the temperature on their shots then release the heat to the same spots that they just touched earlier. They fight different but their punch technique is very similar.
Hey Breadman this is Londani Makhado from South Africa, this is my first time writing to you. I hope you’re good.
I want to ask you about Claressa Shields, is she really the “GWOAT” as she says? And how would a fight between her and Laila Ali play out?
Thank you, Londani
Bread’s Response: You know what. I wouldn’t argue with anyone who says Claressa Shields is the GWOAT. She certainly has a claim. Women’s boxing does not have the long history that men’s does so one can ascend faster in women’s boxing. Going by accomplishments I think Shields is the only 2 division undisputed champion in the 4 belts era. She’s also the only 2x Olympic gold Medalist from the US. So those two things alone make her accomplishments very hard to beat.
As far as who’s the best. I would have to really study the other great women. I would also have to study their opponents to know how much validation the resumes have. I can’t just answer an open question like that without research. I don’t want to make myself look foolish. I will say with the Eye Ball test. Shields can really, really fight. She has elite level hand speed. Her hand eye coordination is elite. She throws every punch technically correct. She’s strong. She doesn’t close her eyes when she’s being attacked. She seems to be able to take a punch. She’s very well conditioned. The only thing she doesn’t do is score kos. The media seems to be on her back about that. I don’t know if it’s valid or not. I don’t know enough about her opponents. I’m just giving an overview.
With the Eye Ball Test a handful of women have stuck out to me along with Claressa. Laila Ali, Christy Martin, Lucia Rijker, Ann Wolfe, Katie Taylor and Amanda Serrano. I apologize if I left anyone out…I’m sure there are others but these ladies are the ones who I have seen fight more than once. In terms of skill set and execution of skills, Shields and Rijker stand out the most from the field. You will have to give me some time to break things down to see who’s really the greatest or best. But I think it may come down to those two.
This past mailbag was a good one! You got asked a lot of tough questions and you gave some great answers! I enjoyed it! I write in every week and I realized I’m long overdue in telling you I appreciate these mailbags. Reading them has become a part of my Saturday morning routine. So thank you!
Now onto my questions for you…You have mentioned in the past that you believed Meldrick Taylor got a raw deal in regards to his first loss to Julio Cesar Chavez. I wanted to explore that topic, though I suspect it’s a sore area for you. I had long thought Richard Steele had made the right decision in stopping the fight. Not really from a safety perspective… well sorta. I thought Steele made a judgment call. I only watched the fight once all the way through… only seen clips and highlights afterwards… but when they show his stoppage I would always mentally note that he asked Taylor twice if he was okay and Taylor never gave a verbal reply (only a slight nod not particularly noticeable). I don’t think he even looked Steele in the eye (now, I do think he was distracted by an irate Lou Duva jumping up and down on the ring mat nearby), so what was Steele supposed to do?
But I have reconsidered that stand since the first Wilder-Fury fight. When I saw Jack Reiss give Tyson Fury that little drill after that HUGE knockdown in round 12… I have since wondered if Steele could’ve done something similar with Meldrick Taylor that night. Could he? I wasn’t around during the first Chavez-Taylor fight, but you were. Can you provide me with some insight on that fight and that stoppage?
I went on a little longer than usual with that question… my next one is related but much shorter. Who are some referees you think are excellent? Everyone likes to crap on bad referees in any sport but who are some boxing referees you admire or you think consistently do a great job?
Greg K.
Bread’s Response: Thank you. I will make this as short and direct as possible. A referee has to be aware of the circumstances in every fight. For example if a fight is in the 8th round and an overmatched fighter is being hurt. He’s losing every round and he doesn’t have history of turning fights around you can consider stopping the fight even if he’s not in dire trouble. The constant beating can do even more damage. Example Garcia vs Malignaggi.
In fight like Chavez vs Taylor. When you have 2 undefeated great fighters putting on that display. You would want a more definitive and conclusive ending. The fight was a war but Taylor was CLEARLY winning. Going into the 12th round he could not have possibly lost more than 3 rounds despite the fight being competitive. When Taylor was knocked down that was the 1st time in the entire fight where he was in visible trouble. Steele claimed that he didn’t care how much time was left in the round but he should have. Time matters in boxing. He may not have known the exact time but through his many years of experience he had to know that there wasn’t much time left. He also was directly in front of the red light buzzer which indicates 10 seconds remaining.
If you observe the fight very closely. Taylor pulled himself up rather quickly. He was asked was he ok and you’re 100% correct. He looked over towards his corner and nodded yes. Steele then asked a 2nd time in a hurried fashion and then immediately stopped the fight. He didn’t even give Taylor a chance to respond to the 2nd “Are you ok.”?It was very rushed which tells me he knew there wasn’t much time left. The story that Meldrick didn’t give a response is false. It was a distracted nod. I’m a stickler for exact details.
I also want to point out that Lou Duva deserves plenty of criticism that always seemed to miss him. He had no business on the ring post. He was definitely a distraction. But all fighters are taught to find their corners. Meldrick made eye contact with his corner. Steele has to know that. He never asked Meldrick to walk to him. He never gave a command. It was two fast questions and the 2nd question was very rushed. Under those circumstances you do NOT stop that fight.
Chavez deserves credit for rallying and scoring a knockdown. Duva deserves criticism for getting on the RING apron. Steele pulled the trigger too soon. And Taylor fought one of the greatest fights we had ever seen. He was on fire with is fast in the box combinations. And deserved his victory that night. I think losing that fight ruined his moral. He won more titles but he never had quite the same energy about himself. He seemed vulnerable even in winning.
I won’t compare what happened in the Fury vs Wilder fight because to me that may have been too much time to recover. I’m not fan of all of that. I don’t make the rules but simple instructions of are you ok, do you want to continue and walk towards me is fine. You don’t want to penalize the fighter who scored the knockdown. That felt like a sobriety test if I’m being honest.
But back to Taylor vs Chavez. My guts never lie to me. And I know what I felt that night. And I feel the same exact thing 31 years later. Steele RUSHED the 2nd question. If he would’ve asked Meldrick to walk towards him, and Meldrick would not have moved then I would have no problem with the stoppage. But that didn’t happen. Steele also had another quick stoppage in Tyson vs Ruddock 1 during the same era. That was a violent hard fight and during volley in which Ruddock was not knocked down, just rocked, he jumped in. Both Tyson and Chavez were A side stars at the time. I just don’t like the feel of both fighters benefitting from stoppages like that in competitive fights they could have lost. I still don’t like that feeling.
I respect all parties involved. Tyson and Chavez are just fighting to win. Duva loves his fighters and he got emotional, it happens. Steele has a hard job and maybe it was just his judgment. I don’t want to attack his character. But I think it was a BIG mistake in both fights and it really turned the career of the Philly Legend Melly Mel. That’s my POV of that fight and I’m never changing on that topic. I don’t want to get into too much more because it saddens me.
Hey Bread. I watched the Frazier-Ali special this past weekend and even though I had watched that fight a dozen times, I was continually amazed at what I was watching. When a man as proud as Andre Ward admitted to not knowing if he could go there, that was a real eye-opening moment. It got me curious to ask you two questions about that heavyweight golden era.
First, at a technical level, how was a fighter as one-handed as Frazier continually land his left hook? Every opponent knew exactly what was coming and no one was able to neutralize it. I don’t say that critically of his opponents-he was an animal in the ring! But I am curious what non-obvious things he might have done to ensure no one took away his left.
Lastly, I have great sympathy for so many of the heavies of that era that would have been favored to at least win a belt or possibly the true championship if Ali, Frazier and Foreman hadn’t emerged at the same time. Of all those second-tier guys- Norton, Lyle, Quarry, Shavers, Young, Ellis, Bonavena, etc.- that never won the title (or the lineal for Norton and Ellis) who do you think had the most upside, and who was most likely to have been champion in another time? How does that group stack up against the Fury/Joshua/Wilder crew?
Thanks, Luke from South Carolina
Bread’s Response: Frazier vs Ali 1 may be the greatest fight in history. Considering totality of circumstances I think it is. It’s actually a better fight than Ali vs Frazier III. More skill.
Andre Ward is highly intelligent. He knows that all fighters will SAY they are willing to go through that. But he also knows that fighters cleverly bail out in fights when the fire gets hot. Ward understands fighters and humans. So he was honest. He said he would have to go through it to know if he could. I love Ward’s perspective. He knew what he was looking at. Ali and Frazier were savages. They kept upping the ante. The stamina, the punishment, the will. Ward knew….
Here is the thing about the one handed fighter moniker. Most fighters favor one hand over the other. Most throw their lead hand more. So Frazier favored his lead hand more. I don’t find it as big as a deal as most. Andre Ward and Oscar De La Hoya both favored their lead hand more also. It didn’t harm them. Here is the thing from a common sense perspective. A fighter ONLY has TWO Hands. It’s not like they have 5 hands and they only throw 1. They have 2! So when a fighter like Frazier who likes to get close, throws one hand predominantly it’s not that big of a deal and it’s hard to exploit. It was NOT a weakness.
Norton was the best of the rest. The 70s was the best era ever for heavyweights. But it’s hard to compare heavyweights because of size differences unless you consider the different supplements etc.
What’s up coach,
How come fighters tap gloves in between rounds? I don’t understand this. Yeah it’s boxing but it’s still a fight too. It seems like a submissive move in the ring to tap gloves with an opponent after a round. Personally I would view it as they ain’t really trying to rumble, but are here to just compete in boxing.
Thanks, Ed H
Bread’s Response: Some fighters tap gloves because it’s their habit. Johnny Tapia used to and he was a cold killer. Pacman and Choc are also glove tappers. Tommy Hearns was tapping Duran’s gloves in their fight and he almost killed him. Watch the fight. Some fighters do it as a silent agreement and they try to be too nice. You have to know the fighter and his mannerisms. Each mindset is different.
Saw your tweet about Ali’s chin and character. Interesting observation… and it got me to wondering. There are some guys who have great chins because of physical attributes. I mean, guys like Chuvalo and Holyfield have broad shoulders and thick necks. Then there’s a guy like Hagler, who basically has a built-in football helmet. But are there guys you think have reputations for great chins… but think that it has more to do with willpower? Can a granite chin be a frame of mind?
I know that might sound odd, but I do think there are guys like Ali who were near impossible to knock out because they refused to get knocked out. I wanna put guys like Arturo Gatti and/or Juan Manuel Marquez in this particular category… but I’m not sure. What are your thoughts? Can a great chin be just as much mental as physical? I mean… sure… Amir Khan can put himself in a strong mindset all he wants… but I sincerely doubt a mindset like that would transform him into Jake LaMotta or Rocky Marciano. But are there some guys you think that was part of why they were hard to stop?
Bread’s Response: GREAT QUESTION! I think Ali had both. He had the chin and he had the will power which is why he’s special. I think Mike Tyson had a great chin for one big shot. Look at the shots Ruddock and Bruno hit him with. Tyson didn’t have the will power, so he was able to take one big shot but he couldn’t take sustained beatings. This gets deep.
I think a mindset definitely allows a fighter to walk through fires. Aaron Pryor and Juan Manuel Marquez come to mind. Those guys didn’t have iron chins in my opinion. They were frequently hurt. But it was almost impossible to STOP them because of their will. Pryor lost by ko in a weird fight where he looked to be drugged or “influenced late in his career”.But overall Pryor and Marquez come to mind when you speak of that will. Especially Marquez because he had almost the double the fights Pryor had.
I don’t know an exact count but Marquez most likely has been knocked down more than 10x. I know for a fact Manny has dropped him 5x. Floyd once. Norwood once. Katsiditis etc etc. But he’s NEVER been stopped. It’s really amazing. Marquez is always being wobbled. But his will power is insane. Although they all count as a TKO or KO on a fighter’s record. Being stopped and being brutally kod and put to sleep are different physically. I think the only way for Marquez to lose by KO is for the referee to make a hasty step in or he gets put to sleep. Other than that he’s not going to lose his WILL to fight. He’s very much like Ali in that sense.
The amazing thing about Marquez is he never lost his will. You will see fighters who walk through hell one fight then they lose that will and start getting stopped. Two of my favorites come to mind. Dwight Qawi. He was a monster vs Holyfield in their 1st fight. But in the rematch he didn’t have it in him to go through “that” anymore. Matthew Saad Muhammad is the biggest example of this. He took an enormous amount of punishment as a rising contender and defending champion. He was NEVER stopped in over 30 career fights. Then he loses by stoppage to Qawi and gets stopped 8x to finish his career. Saad was never knocked out cold. But the punishment caught up and he kept getting “stopped”.
Amir Khan is a fighter who just doesn’t have good punch resistance. That can be a physical thing. I think he has heart and will power. He showed it vs Maidana who really hurt him. He showed it vs Danny Garcia. Khan kept trying to fight back. But he just doesn’t take a punch well. It’s just one of those things some people are predisposed to. Khan is a very willful fighter. He tries hard to not get kod. Khan also loses track of incoming punches. I think his issues are different than a fighter who just doesn’t have Will Power and gets kod. It takes a great eye to understand this and the differences.
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